| Name: Elis | Date: Oct 30th, 2009 2:28 AM |
| I Googled "dealing constructively with a crazy ex wife who will not move on" and I found this post. I'm so sorry this is happening to all of us. I can't imagine why my fiance's ex wife will not go on with her life after they have been separated/divorced almost 7 years? She comes over the the house and screams at my fiance (we've had to call the police but she left before they got there) and I am going to file a restrainng order soon. She has a restraining order against her from every person she's dated after my finance. The funny thing is, she has a degree, is very talented and has a very nice side. However, she can't hold a job and has been fired or quits 6 in the last 3 years. The newest lie is that we think she is spreading rumors that my finance is a sex offender. He just happend to be a 30 yr public servant (fire) with fingerprints on record and never even had a speeding ticket for the last 23 years. We've spoken to his laywer about this because this lie could ruin his career, our business and he could have his children taken away (50/50 custody). I have been to counseling about her and the only thing I can really do is to stop talking about her in the home at all. This gives her more power in the relationship becuase, believe me, she already tries to control us at every turn. I am trying to learn to forgive, but it'll be a long 10 years until his youngest is 18, I'd hate to live with the demons in her head. It must be so self-destrucive to have those demons contantly flying out her mouth. She's refuses counseling and is now trying to turn the kids against him, but we've managed to talk to them enough so that they see through her lies. Wish her peace, because it'll be the only peace she will ever have. I'm not religious, but I try to "pray" (for lack of a better term) for her that she gets on with her life. She never will, but she'll have to live with herself after the children are gone. Good Luck :-) ↑ |
| Name: Kari | Date: Nov 21st, 2009 1:20 AM |
| It sounds like your boyfriend bows down to his ex so that his kids won't think he's a bad father, how familiar! I suggest that he has a talk with the children letting them know his side and that reguardless of what their mother says about him or you that the both of you love them no matter what. Then he needs to put his foot down with the ex and demand that she limit some of their sports or deal with them herself because it was her choice to do that with the children and not a joint decision! If he does not put his foot down with her now it will only get worse and will end up ruining your relationship and any other he tries to have ↑ |
| Name: jennifer | Date: Dec 4th, 2009 5:22 AM |
| I am sorry for how your boyfriends ex acts...just know that when you get married it will be the same. stay strong and be there for your boyfriend and kids...it is ok to cut back on their activities. I have friends with parents that did the same thing and they dont talk to them anymore...(the ones that keep the one parent from the other one) ↑ |
| Name: cosmichoney | Date: Dec 8th, 2009 10:38 PM |
| The ex is always going to be a problem and we have to decide if we love the man enough to deal with "her" issues. My fiance and I have been together almost 3 years and his ex calls all the time. She has even called him at midnight to say she is sorry for leaving him and would do it over again if she could. My fiance will listen to her and has not built up the nerve to put up better boundries. She will call when she needs her car fixed or a ride somewhere. She can't stand that her life isin't in order and his is!!! We have kids on both sides and it is hard to blend a family, but she is something else!! She is an unfit mother. She leaves her one son to babysit the little brother, however he was only 7 when she started leaving them home alone!!! She works for the child service department so turning her in has been nonexistent. I just hope that she learns to develop a life of her own and leaves me, my fiance, and my family out of it. I hope my fiance can get the picture and put her in her place!!! Wow I feel better now that I can write this out. ↑ |
| Name: Zennox | Date: Jan 13th, 2010 11:34 AM |
Because I can speak from experience I can tell you what I would have done in such a situation. Talk to your husband about laying down rules about expenditure on kids. Then decide on having the kids do only two extra activities that you will cover, the same rule apply to all the kids. Teach them this principle while they are still young, so it doesn't grow out of control when they do get older.
Maybe take the all the kids on a weekend away to have fun and bond as a family, then talk to the all the kids in the most kind and loving way. So they know what has been said is purely out of love.
If the ex wife has a problem with it, then have her pay for the other extra activities she wants her kids to enroll for. It is just fair.
And you as wife have to stand up for your happiness, don't sink to the ex wifes level, but know that because you are married to this man, you also have a say in dicisions made.
You definitely can't change the ex wifes mindset, but you can change the childrens.
Goodluck and keep the faith. ↑ |
| Name: TiaNZ | Date: Jan 19th, 2010 5:11 AM |
Hey girls "Wow is there some venting going on here or what!!!! I sympathise with all the new wives and partners here that have to deal with that "Space wasting Psycho Nut case " Ex wife. I to was in the place of all of you. Ex wife couldn't handle my partner being in a loving and caring relationship and being they had 2 kids from their marriage and knowing that they absolutely loved me and my 3 children to pieces crushed her emotionly over and over,
I think she expected him to be single forever as she got the shock of her life when the kids went back to tell mommy daddys got a new partner all her thoughts of him being single went out the window. Even worse my partners mother "Currently Going Through Her Second Divorce " was living with my partner at the time"A Very Miserable Woman" who also managed to make me miserable and I actually use to cry at night before I went to sleep and at times after having to dealing with the ex wive. My mother inlaw also ended up jelious and resentful towards me[-- Just My luck she sides with the ex wife and constantly tries to fill my head with trash of the marriage" She also found it pleasing to stir the ex wife up every now and then" about how great the kids were with me because she new how much it ripped her up inside, I ended up telling her to keep her venom to her self and that I wasn't going to keep putting up with the trouble she was causing.
"ANYWAY" We ended up finding ourselves in court fighting to have shared custody and over 1 year found ourselves $14'000.00 in lawyer fees. Trying to live off one wage with some financial assistance and supporting 5 kids and a mother inlaw who refused to pay her way, on top of having to deal with her hell and the Ex wive took it's toll.
ACTION--] this will not suit everyone, I sat down and thought to my self I am going to go virtually insane unless I took some drastic measures and do something. Though I love the kids to pieces and would never do anything intentionaly to hurt them I believe I had done nothing wrong to ever deserve this treatment from either the Ex wife or mother inlaw, I was damn right phsically and emotionally beaten down and sick oh so sick of it.
So I approached my partner and I told him we had to move completely out of the area. because as long as he is amounst these 2 people his judgement will always be clouded, it did mean giving into the custody battle and not having the regular access to the kids, but now 4 years later he couldn't thank me enough.
We are now living a 17 hour drive away from the Mother inlaw and Ex wive, since the move the relationship with my partner and I have flourished we will be marrying this year , I use to Scream inside myself and finally I have been able to find peace. My children finally feel settled as we are not surounded by CHAOS and tension, my step children are sad that we don't live as close as before, but they understand that in order to provide them with a good and prosperous life we had to live one as well. We have never forgotten them and always make sure to cover birthdays, easter,kids day and christmas. We regulary fly them in for long holidays travel to holiday parks, camping and give them an awesome experience, but most of all giving them precious time by helping them through things they find difficult in life.
As for the financial side of things we pay childsupport and cover just the essentials, and provide everything they need with us, best part is because we are no longer living convinently close anymore means the ex won't argue with us if we request the kids, this is what worked for me and good luck to everyone else. ↑ |
| Name: TiaNz | Date: Jan 27th, 2010 9:00 AM |
| Wow was that comment for me??? Why thank you so much for pucking up the courage to actually say something, though it has degraded you in so manys ways . Prehaps a good mouth wash may help you. Lucky last Happy Newyear I'll be praying for you. ↑ |
| Name: rachel | Date: May 30th, 2010 12:47 PM |
| Thank god i found this site now i know im not alone. My boyfriend and i are 24 he is divorced with 2 children. we've been together for over a year and are now planning our first child. The ex doesnt know yet but im sure that when she does she'll write all sorts of lies on the net like she has done about him for nearly a year now. Saying that he cheated, he has 2 other kids by 2 different woman (making it 4 kids in total) his abusive, a lier, etc. The sad thing in all this is not the stress she puts on our relationship or how sad it is that a woman 10years older then us feels the need to do this, but the fact that there children are missing out on there dad. His a great dad but never gets to see them (now going to court over it) always pays for them and misses them so much his family never see them either. I guess i thought it would stop and as she knows nothing about me i could walk away really easily but you cant help who you fall in love with and if someone doesnt like it then thats there problem because you cant and shouldnt sacrifice your own happiness because of a bitter ex. its hard but worth it in the end i hope you are all happy and keep doing the right thing for the kids because they are the victims in all this. ↑ |
| Name: Carol | Date: Jun 6th, 2010 11:37 AM |
| So good to read your replys...... I have same thing happening alto children from both marrages aren't school age they all grown up.... I get this ex wife ringing to chat to my boyfriend whenever she feels like, I'm so sick of it imconsidering ending it with my boyfriend.. I don't understand why he can't just say to her that we out and he call her later.... She never going to move on if she thinks it ok he on end of line to chat whenever she feels down xx Carol ↑ |
| Name: WOW | Date: Jun 11th, 2010 11:05 PM |
| Totally love hearing this...IM NOT ALONE! My husband ( of 4 years) has 2 children. 18 and 14. The oldest is graduating this weekend. The ex is still friends with the my husbands brothers wife ( who doesn't like me because I said something negative about the ex 5 years ago). Fine, however they both have no nothing but set out to do things to us just to be bitches. Right down to the ex asking the niece to go somewhere with her, knowing that we had made plans to take his kids and the niece to that same place. So she just asked the sister in law to take the niece only. Now we face the graduation party that the ex and sister law ( who has a daughter the same age and is graduating from the same school) planned with out included my husband at my husbands brothers house. Now, in December we told the brother and sister in law, in front of his WHOLE family that if his son wanted to be a part of this graduation party (which he didn't want any part of at all, the ex and sis in law backed him into it) WE are willing and wanting to help with the party. After all, its his son and at his brothers house. So we get world about 3 weeks into April that his son told his mom and sis in law that he wanted to be a part of the party. NO SAID A WORD TO US and they sent out invites to my husbands family and didn't even tell us. Should my husband have the right to say something? Now, graduation is this weekend and the sis in law is holding seats for our family and now wants the ex to sit with. NO ONE LIKES THE EX...my husbands parents are uncomfortable with the idea, she isn't family. Wea are all uncomfortable and the sis doesn't get it. So we get to sit with out my husbands parents, and his brother and his sons and nieces graduation. Im tired of being the bigger person! ↑ |
| Name: A-MAN | Date: Jun 17th, 2010 9:47 PM |
| My X was exactly the same way. She did and said whatever she could to keep my children from gaining a positive perspective of my wife. Her goal was to belittle me and keep the kids endeared to her. the one thing that I realized was that "consistency" was the key. You and your boyfriend/husband must be consistant in your dealing with both your kids and his. Love and respect them constantly. The kids will eventually see the truth and what their mother is telling just won't line up... Good Luck ↑ |
| Name: judy | Date: Jun 26th, 2010 3:49 AM |
| Run as fast as you can! un. less you can be a bitch back, then get out now, it won't get better. She is using her kids as pawns, and doesn't care about them , but actually thinks she does. She is selfish, manipulative, and unless your boyfriend stands up to her for real and for good, then thiis will be your life.We teach people how to treat us. ↑ |
| Name: Steve | Date: Jul 6th, 2010 1:32 AM |
| God Bless all that is going thru this as I myself am going thru the same. My ex is now taking me to court on my 2 sons. I am a christian and want to reach out to everyone going thru this and say that God sees all. Keep staying positive and you will be victorious in the end!! ↑ |
| Name: Step-Mommy4life | Date: Jul 6th, 2010 5:23 AM |
| My husband "Steve" is right. God does not like ugly and everything that his ex is doing to us will come back on her one day. We just continue to love all 5 of our kids and my 2 step son's know that I love that no matter what their mom says about me. They are not even allowed to say my name at their house. I agree with all of you, this is about the kids and as long as WE new wives keep loving the kids and standing our ground we will come out on top. There is no way the "ex" will ever have control over what happens in our home! . We have been going through this for 8 years, so I know excactly how you all feel!! Stay strong ladies and keep praying & loving on your kids. God Bless~ ↑ |
| Name: S.T. | Date: Aug 12th, 2010 10:16 PM |
| Oh my goodness I'm going through the exact same thing with my husband's ex. It is absolutely miserable, and I'm not sure that there is any way to fix it, or atleast I can't manage to. I really hope that sometime soon something clicks and she realizes the damage that is being done. ↑ |
| Name: jane | Date: Aug 20th, 2010 7:45 PM |
| although I'm sorry all of you are going through this, I'm so glad that I'm not the only one. I try to stay positive and be the bigger person regarding my boyfriend's ex wife and her terrible comments. I try to sympathize with the fact that the divorce was hard on her but when you use your children as pawns it's just wrong. As many of you have written, my boyfriend's kids cannot mention my name in front of thier mother, the called them traitors for liking me, yelled at them for having a good time on our vacation, calls at all hours, usually intoxicated, texts, emails and gets to vent all she wants in very nasty ways and it's so hard sometimes to take the high road. Where is the point of being allowed to defend yourself? My first hope would be that she get her crap together and be a better mom and a better role model for thier children. If that doesnt happen then I just have to hope they seeme for the example I set and see how dysfunctional she is and realize what we have is family. She is almost always drunk and to her family that means they give her a free pass to do/say whatever she wants without consequences and totally disagree with this. She made her kids cry and forced them to delete me from their phones and from Facebook and they are afraid to even say my name when they are at home. It's just so sad. I like the post that says God hates Ugly. I try to keep that in mind and I do believe in setting the bigger example but there is a line there somewhere between doing what is right and not being a doormat! ↑ |
| Name: moving saturday | Date: Aug 26th, 2010 3:51 AM |
| All i can tell you is i am moving in with my boyfriend on saturday and the situation got soooooo much worse once his ex found out i was moving in. Then every time she has her week with her child she calls and he jumps.......i have explained to him that thats our time and that we need our couple time and he needs to learn to say no. only for the reason that we have his son the other half of the time and wenever call her. This si the hardest thing i have ever done getting involved in this situation and we have defnitely argued alot because i put my boundaries down before i moved....things get worse in these situations before they seem to get better. The ex's test these men because they can and the men let them and then another woman comes along and the ex goes crazy sooooo we will see... ↑ |
| Name: goodshiplollipop | Date: Aug 28th, 2010 12:39 AM |
| Being only very new to this, I have been listening to loads of advice on what to do - ápparently psychologists have actually come up with a name for this ''ex wives syndrome'' . Reading your post and looking ahead to more misery, I wonder if it would be better for me to pull out now!! It doesn't sound like there is any light at the end of the tunnel ........ ↑ |
| Name: B | Date: Aug 28th, 2010 1:58 PM |
| I totally understand what you going through. Really isn’t live difficult enough within second marriages.... we are mostly happy and enjoy our marriage and children, all together 5. My husband's ex wife often make plans on our weekends. This weekend the kids (11 and 14) had to go to an overnight party on Friday. We had no problem with this and arrange that they should be back at 10oclock the next morning. We had planned to all go to the movies etc. At 10 the next day she suddenly realize that the kids did not have clothes and when to the local mall to buy. This spoilt our day and we did not go because I got mad, he got mad at me because I got mad. …….. ↑ |
| Name: Ben | Date: Sep 15th, 2010 10:36 PM |
| I have been going through the same thing for over 30 years. I didn't want the divorce either but she had a boyfriend for over the last two years of our marriage and then she filed for divorce. I have worked hard (2 jobs for over 25 years) to support my children and make a new life for myself. It took a long time to heal but now I am happy and satisfied with my life. I have a wonderful partner for over 25 years and she is very supportive of me, my children, and grandchildren. But my ex always has to throw in some sort of jealous dig about me to my sons and daughters in law. She always throws in that I don't care about my family. She knows that really offends me. I don't think my situation will ever get better. She must be really unhappy about her own life and her decision to end our marriage. The only advise I can give is to try and ignore the jealous comments and insults and go about life as best as possible, put yourself above the drama. Some people are evil and will never be happy unless they're digging others. Some people will never be happy and will never change, ↑ |
| Name: jess2006 | Date: Sep 16th, 2010 6:08 PM |
| I applaud you on being a decent ex wife. Lord knows we as the current wife know how they can be. I feel you on the ex-wife, it's true you will never be able to change a childish ex wife. They have lost "control" of what was once thiers, and now another woman is in thier place...It is thier own issues they have to deal with and in turn of accepting thier own blame they will use the kids as the tools in the relationship to be hurtful or spiteful..There is really nothing you can do about this but express your frustration to your mate and hopefully like my husband did...he will man up...he should not be afraid he has the same right as the mother to make choices as well as her. Most men are afraid, talk with an attorney in your own state and possibly get a free consult, the attorney can direct your mate to some relief ↑ |
| Name: wl | Date: Sep 19th, 2010 11:40 PM |
| hopefully she will end up in the loony bin sooner than later. ↑ |
| Name: Lise | Date: Sep 20th, 2010 9:52 AM |
I am in a very similair situation! My husband has a little girl of 6 years from another marriage. I love her like my own and wouldn't think twice if she had to come live with us... in fact, I would prefer it that way! The ex is a crazy manipulative woman and things have now even come to the point where I am not allowed to speak to her anymore as I asked if she would please let the little one phone her dad on his birthday. This was too much to ask and apparently not her responsibilty... things got out of hand and she ripped into me. I am a calm person who thinks before I speak and she isn't, so I have emails where she treats me like sh&*^ and accuses me of all kinds of things! This weekend the little one told me that her mum said I must put my nose in my butt!!! From the mouth of a 6 year old come the horrible messages her mother sends along with her!!! Can you believe...
My husband took this up with her and now she doesn't even want to speak to him anymore. He asked her to respect me as he respects her husband - she said that its different as the little one lives with them permanently! The cheek!!! I am stuck in the middle now and not allowed to voice my opinion even though everything is about me? What to do? ↑ |
| Name: yah | Date: Sep 21st, 2010 5:48 PM |
| Look up parental alienation syndrome. the fact that his ex wife says bad things about their father is one of the warning signs. She is trying to keep the kids so busy that their little heads are spinning. A child that is too busy to think can be brainwashed over a short period of time to think that their own father is a bad man. this is a very disturbed person. Don't try to fix her. She is unfixable. ↑ |
| Name: Glenn | Date: Oct 2nd, 2010 10:53 AM |
I'm dealing with something similar now. Have been for seven years. My ex wife is extremely vile in her actions. Just this past weekend, she partied with my child at her house, making my child go to bed early so she can drink with her new boyfriends. The courts seem to cater to her. Sucks for me.
Now, with that part you know, I have to "cater" to her as well. The only reason is because she really damages my child with her foolish games if I don't. Just be patient with your soon-to-be husband. If he sees and feels that you understand his actions, but are in the middle with him through all of this, then he will find a way out for you guys. Good luck! Prayer makes it work! ↑ |
| Name: Stepmommy4life | Date: Oct 27th, 2010 5:56 AM |
| I'm sorry You are all going through this with the ex wives. Let's see what's the latest. O' my husbands ex is taking us to court for custody because she claims our boys are in danger when they are around me! After 8 years of the boys being around me this is what the woman is claiming "OK"? Idiot! everyone can see that she clearly has a problem with me (not to mention the restraining order) I have against her for physically attacking me at her sons kindergarden graduation! I have been the problem for her since the day I married her ex~the ex SHE wanted to divorce! I mean what is it with women who HAVE their men, let them go then get made when they move one. Anyway, we have forked out $2000 in court fees so far not including our lawyer fees! She is doing this for no reason and is waisting time and money. We went to court in June because she filed an emergency order but the judge dropped it and now there is a family investigator investigating our home and our relationship with the boys!! All of this because she cannot accept how things are and just move one! I seriously believe she has a mental condition I think it's called "Border Line Personality Disorder" there is this book called "I Have you, dont leave me" and it talks about these women and these crazy personalities. I get so tired sometimes and just want to throw in the towel but what good would that do other then give "her" the satisfaction. My husband and i have a daughter of our own so where would that leave my daughter? I am not the dumb, no I don't like going through all of this but sometimes you can't control who you fall in love with and the ex clearly has a problem and it has NOTHING to do with me! That is what you ladies have to realize it's not about US, they were mentally ill before we even came into the picture. Well I will keep you ladies posted on what happens in court in December until then she keeps sending email after email telling my husband that the boys are "THEIR" kids and that I HAVE to GO! can you believe her/ CRAZY!!! God Bless Ladies and if you are in a new relationship and just getting into a mess like ours/like I said before you can't control who you fall in love with and if you choose to stay just know that the ex will NEVER change and if she is acting controling now while you are dating it will get worse. Just think about it long and hard and ask yourself if you are willing to go through this with your man, because he will need you to be strong in the process! Nite Ladies :) ↑ |
| Name: Ali | Date: Nov 16th, 2010 1:06 AM |
| This is exactly what I were going through, until I decided to call his ex's bluff and do every thing she demanded with a smile on my face. With in two weeks she stopped full access as the kids were enjoying life too much at ours lol. There is no answer to this except sooner or later the kids do grow into their own minds. xx ↑ |
| Name: mom_to_3 | Date: Nov 21st, 2010 4:01 PM |
| My husband's non custodial ex wife refuses to put my step-daughter's best interests first. She is trying to be her friend not her mother. She is in contempt with EVERY visit! She refuses to allow my husband to contact the child when she goes to visit her, she leaves her with her friends who have criminal records. She confides in the child adult matters such as her legal problems-an upcoming court case where she is being charged with 12 contempts of court. She does not give the child prescribed medications and has exposed her to peanuts despite a diagnosis of a peanut allergy. She does not even have a winter coat for my step-daughter-a hooded sweatshirt is the heaviest coat she has at her mother's. She had plans to take the child when she was going to meet people for the first time in person she had met on MySpace. The only reason she didn't is the other couple cancelled on her. We had asked her not to do that for safety reasons, but she ignored our requests. She leaves her with her friends who have criminal records despite us having first right of refusal. We have had to call the cops on three occassions. Twice because she refused to return my step-daughter and once because she took her out of town and refused to tell us where she was. She belittles my husband and I inf front of the child and refuses to allow her to speak about her father while she is visiting. She attempts to manipulate my step-daughter by making her feel sorry for her because "her dad has caused all these problems". My husband did not force her to not pay child support, he does not force her to not provide for the child, he does not make her badmouth him in front of the child. My husband's ex has tried to get custody on two occassions and lost both times. She has even called her attorney and told him that we were going to try to prevent her from getting the child for visitation during a time that both of us would have been at work (she picks the child up from school on her weekends). How could we stop her if we were at work? Crazy situation if you ask me. We are taking her to court on 12 contempt charges for the mere reason that she is so hard to get along with and is rude, hateful and vindictive. She refused to allow me to take the child to my family reunion 800 miles away and then wanted extra time with the child to take her to a funeral of a distant relative. Oh well, should have thought about that when she refused to budge so I could go see my parents and the rest of my family. She can stick to the visitation plan from now on since she doesn't want to work with us on things we want to do which are maybe once a year if that. Maybe after our court date, we will be able to amend the visitation so we don't have to allow her to go to her mother's so much, then the drama she creates would be much less! When will the courts ever see that controlling, vindictive people are only hurting the children? The harm done over the long run will be much worse than the good of seeing these parents will ever be able to erase! ↑ |
| Name: stepmommy1 | Date: Nov 23rd, 2010 7:13 AM |
| Thank God for this site! We just found out today that our girls will not be joining us for our Thanksgiving trip! My husband discussed this with her over a month ago......I am so tired of her not doing right by us concerning our time with the girls.....they are 5 and 7....She makes decisions based on her emotions....she is bitter and mean to me all the time. I walked into this situation wanting to be friends....thinking that we are all adults and it makes sense for the sake of the kids. She does everything in her power to make things on our end difficult....She kicked him out...literally....I had nothing to do with their divorce and did not even know them.....I continue to pray for her and our situation...but I just wish she would get over it and grow up!!! Sssshhheeesssshhhh!! ↑ |
| Name: nancy3486 | Date: Dec 28th, 2010 5:19 AM |
| Name: Stepmommy4lif | Date: Jan 15th, 2011 5:21 AM |
| Well Ladies! This whole custody court crap is OVER (Thank God). The investigation went well and the CFI report actually stated that "SHE" was too controling and needed to accept that I am in the boys lives, and that they love me. So I was glad that a complete stranger saw right through her ass! So 6 months later & $5,000 later in lawyer fees we are back to square one, with a new parenting plan. O i forgot to mention that now my husband is forced/court ordered to go to parenting classes with her together for 1 month all because HER ass is the one that has the problem. He is Pissed! The classes wont change nothing because until she changes and accepts (OUR marriage) things will never change. All I can say ladies is keep loving the kids, she tries so hard to get in the way of my relationsship with my boys, but I WONT let her. It's not their fault their mother is a jackass!! I still have my restraining order against her so that helps because her ass can't come within 150 yards from me! Keep your heads up Ladies and pray that God will fight THIS battle, cause bitter ex-wives are NOT WORTH BREAKING UP YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR MAN! Night Ladies ↑ |
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