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Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:20 PM
Homemommichelle--I do not mean to sound callious to you. I do not think I could go through with a partial birth abortion even if my life was in danger or if the child was severely deformed. I can talk about it very easily because I know it is a decision I will not have to face. However, I have enough empathy to put myself in the shoes of a woman who is facing this kind of difficult decision. Who wants to die and leave behind a family that depends on you? Who wants to give life to a child that will live a painful life? I have often wondered about some people who defy all doctor recommendations and go through with pregnancies that will result is severe deformities. Are they selfish to do this? Sometimes I think "yes." Life at all costs is sometimes not worth living IMO. 

Name: T-rabbit | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:22 PM
I agree but this is not a debate on who is right and wrong every one is entitled to their opinions till they change that law too. 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:24 PM
Yes, the lady lived in Poland. Abortion is legal in that country. She was denied her right even when facing medical complications. This new ban in our country forbids partial birth abortions even due to medical complications to the mother. How is it different from the Poland case? Same outcome--denial of procedure even at the risk to the mother. 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:25 PM
The woman who drowned her kids, Andrea yates..yes truly a psycho...but the ones like that aren't having abortions. The ones abusing the kids are having them. That is why I am for adoption. How much better for the child to go to a loving home where a family awaits that cannot have their own??? Of course ones like Andrea would not give them up for adoption either.

I had a friend I was debating once and she asked me what I think about child abuse then since I am pro life. I said "well, abortion is killing a baby, and so is child abuse...I think abortion is child abuse". Make adoption laws better, people not afraid to adopt etc

As for whittling away at Roe V Wade?? thank God..this is how to do it, not ban everything all together. Start with the most gruesome procedure that most people can agree (at least if they know what is really involved) is wrong, then go from there with education and yes, alternatives!! Adoption, help and assistance for families...financial, education, jobs....REAL easy access to birth control. I am Catholic but I say hand out condoms on the street corners!!!! 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:27 PM
And who is right to say who's life is worth living?????
Somewhere, and it was posted in here, many would have aborted Beethoven!! Tests, amnios ect are not 100%. 

Name: Nicolaaa | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:28 PM
and people should STOP hurling insults around this forum about choices people made in the past. They hurt more than the person they were aimed at. 


Name: T-rabbit | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:28 PM
"I am Catholic but I say hand out condoms on the street corners!!!! " YES YES YES!!!!!!! They should start by sending them to the schools. 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
Nicolaa "partial birth abortion" is not done "early enough" that is what they are banning.
Are you planning to tell your daughters you sometimes wish you had aborted them??? God help them. 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
What do you say to the woman who would die if denied this procedure. What would you say to the deformed human being who is subjected to a lifetime of pain because of birth defects? Life at all costs is not always a good thing. What do you say to these people? 

Name: Nicolaaa | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
yeah...handing them out at schools...that woud've saved me a fortune. 

Name: Nicolaaa | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
lol!!! 

Name: T-rabbit | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
Name: Nicolaaa Date: 04/18/2007 13:28:28
and people should STOP hurling insults around this forum about choices people made in the past. They hurt more than the person they were aimed at. =


Who is doing this we are all having a nice normal insulting discussion. 

Name: atomicsnowflake | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
And who is there to fight for the unborn child's rights? Fetuses can feel pain and fear also. When I was a student I looked after literally dozens and dozens of teenagers in the day surgery unit - all coming in for the little suction terminations........how convenient for them.

I also looked after a grown woman who told me that she was having the termination because "Kids are so expensive" - she had about three already. I felt sick.

I'm not a religious person and I agree that sometimes a termination is the only option in the case of severe malformation of the baby or rape, but I think that some women DO use termination as a form of family planning.

There are far more humane ways to terminate a late pregnancy than a partial birth abortion.

The cervix is dilated and the membranes ruptured. The baby is dragged - feet first - into the birth canal. The abortionist then ruptures the back of the skull and pushes his instrument into the brain of the baby - killing it - then the skull is crushed and the rest of the body dragged out of the woman. The baby experiences fear and extreme pain whilst this is occuring. It's body pumps out masses of adrenaline and other stress hormones.

I personally have known several women who've had terminations - albeit, early ones - simply because having a baby wasn't convenient for them.

What happened to contraception?

As for termination being performed in order to save a woman's life - this situation is extremely rare and there's always the option of a c-section. 

Name: T-rabbit | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:29 PM
un insulting 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:30 PM
Homemommichelle, what is your solution? 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:30 PM
M ...Difference between here and poland??? We have the capabilities to deliver a 23 weeker, and provide excellent care and save both the baby and the mom. At least then the child has a chance, and it is in Gods hands. 

Name: Little Miss Tara | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:31 PM
Nicola what did you mean by your comment... "handing them out"? I'm sorry I didn't quite get it. 

Name: Nicolaaa | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:32 PM
partial birth abortion i do not agree with really....i dont really like abortions past 20 ish weeks, where the babies are moving and everything. Really alive. Proper humans. and reading what randi said, it soudns brutal

and of course i will tellt hem. They will understand. Im going to be very open with my daughters. and what did you mean by God Help Them? 

Name: T-rabbit | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:33 PM
I got to go it was nice to talk with you all. :-) 

Name: Little Miss Tara | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:34 PM
Well Atomic, I don't think suction abortions are just "convenient". I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control either. Sometimes it's just the right choice, like it or not a choice. It should always be a choice for women no matter the circumstances. 

Name: Nicolaaa | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:35 PM
i meant t-rabbits comment on how they should start sending them to schools....i think maybe if you could get them from the school nurse...if you went and met with him/her and spoke with them. like you owuld at an advisory clinic.

and nobody in here is fighting. I know that, I meant that i have seen things written in the past that I didnt like. People do bring up people's pasts and use it as insults. That I dont like.

Recently a baby survived at 23 weeks, went the current abortion law in the uk is 24 weeks...so...that baby if born COULD survive. Do you think that that is wrong? 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:35 PM
M read ATomics post. I think this is very interesting that the two nurses, from opposite sides of the world...agree and are very knowlegeable. YES deliver the child early. I have seen this DONE!! The baby stays in as long as possible, the mom is given steriods to mature the lungs of the baby sooner, and then the baby is given a chance outside. Yes, sometimes it doesn't work, but is lots more humane than that "CHOICE"!!
I do not judge anyone. Everyone has to live with their choices and actions in life. I live with mine. 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:37 PM
I agree abortions are not a good choice in most cases. But I do think there are times when it is the best option. Do we take that option away from women for good? Also, if my mother was told that I was going to be born with severe deformities with no quality of life--I would hope she would choose an abortion for me. That would be a very unselfish act of love because I am sure it would be a very difficult decision to make. Also, I do not think a mother's health should be disregarded as an acceptable reason for choosing abortion. 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:37 PM
Heck yes!! In US we save 23 weekers all the time!! I have helped save them, held their hands...busted my butt to save their lives!! I think that is extremely WRONG!! By Early I was thinking before 12 weeks when everything is formed.

By God Help them I simply meant that I don't think I would like it if my Mom told me she wished I had never been born!!!!! 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:39 PM
Homemommichelle,

"Medicine continues to push back the age at which very premature infants survive, but those born before 25 weeks of pregnancy and live suffer a very high rate of learning and physical disability, a British study has shown. " 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:40 PM
M no one is taking it away for good. Just this gruesome procedure. As I said, take away the worst, then education, options....
Once again who is to determine anothers "quality of life"?? As for the mothers life, there are other ways as I stated as did Atomic. 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:41 PM
M
Copy and paste from a source...
Me
cared for them, worked with them, saw many go home to lead full and productive lives as normal children 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:41 PM
I never said anything about wishing someone was never born. 

Name: M | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:42 PM
Source:

http://www.hopkins
medicine.org/hnf/hnf_6034.htm
 

Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:48 PM
Okay, M tell that to the moms who took their baby home. I am sure they are glad that "statistics" aren't always the be all and end all. I am just saying it is murder to slaughter them with this procedure. As for never been born, I was answering Nicolaa who stated she will gladly tell her twins (have we determined she even really has kids???) that she wishes she had aborted them. 

Name: Nicolaaa | Date: Apr 18th, 2007 5:49 PM
I think the "abortion time limit" should be pushed back to 20 weeks...but no less yet. People need time to think...people may not know they are pregnant till too late. Abortion should not be taken away as an option completley, it just should be done humanely and appropriately. Maybe tighter guidelines on who can have one....to avoid people using it as a contraceptive. Maybe once you have had one, you need to be taught again about contraception, which could be humilitating for older people...but they would remember i would think.

Im not sure of the practicalities of such a thing but...well, no harm in thinking is there?

If abortion is made completley illegal, back street abortionists will just be back...that is why it was made legal to begin with. As so many women died at the hands of back street abortionists. Women will always want abortions, legal or not...the best thing you can do is educate...

Graphic images put me off the abortion. They showed late stage abortions when they were visibly babies....I was young and I felt awful for even considering it. The pictures made me feel physcially sick....they were babies. not just a bunch of cells. 

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