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The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) published an article concluding that a developing fetus does not experience pain prior to 28 weeks of gestation. ↓
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| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:11 PM |
| This is for all of those on here who have been made to feel like a murderer for past decisions. Let no one judge you who has not walked a mile in your shoes! ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:14 PM |
| The JAMA article reviews numerous studies of fetal development. It stipulates, "Pain is an emotional and psychological experience that requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus." You can be jabbed without feeling pain, or feel pain without being jabbed. The pain is the mental part. To have such an experience, you need a mind—specifically, links from your thalamus to your cerebral cortex. The article concludes, "Consequently, the capacity for conscious perception of pain can arise only after thalomocortical pathways begin to function, which may occur around 29 to 30 weeks' gestational age." ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:15 PM |
| Okay hon, whatever. These same people also before said newborns felt no pain as well. Now...OOooops oh well for those newborns who were untreated. And when was this article published??? 1970??? Why do we give pain relief...Narcotics to infants below 28 weeks???? Go visit a nicu. Until you know what the hell you are talking about, until you have your degree, give it up. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:16 PM |
| You just cannot stand to think that the know it all M may be wrong on some things????? ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:18 PM |
| If you don't trust an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association because two of its five medically trained authors are openly pro-choice, imagine the trustworthiness of "findings of fact" issued by scores of pro-life politicians, only a handful of whom are doctors. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:18 PM |
PUBLISHED IN 2005
Fetal Pain
A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence
Susan J. Lee, JD; Henry J. Peter Ralston, MD; Eleanor A. Drey, MD, EdM; John Colin Partridge, MD, MPH; Mark A. Rosen, MD
JAMA. 2005;294:947-954. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:21 PM |
PROBABLY do not feel pain
Are you willing to take that chance???
I am not, esp having observed real live 23 weekers experiencing REAL LIVE pain.
Do you even know what a trimester is???? The first trimester is 12 weeks!! Not 20, 23 or 24. yet this all started because of the ban on partial birth abortion, which is never done less then 12 weeks!! It would be impossible to do that procedure. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:24 PM |
God M,
I pray that if you ever have a premature baby, that the nurses in the nicu that take care of your child don't have that belief.
I hope they follow the established standard of care...minimizing needlesticks, clustering care, PAIN control.
You talk about me upsetting someone that made that unfortunate choice. What about women on here that have lost babies, how do you think it would feel to think that people think of your child as just a "product of conception"??? ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:25 PM |
| Argue with the American Medical Association. The association published the article in 2005 concluding that a developing fetus does not experience pain prior to 28 weeks of gestation--not me! ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:28 PM |
Yes, and these are the same people that thought that newborns (full term) did not feel pain. All of which has been proven not true, and is not now the standard of care.
I am not arguing just stating fact. If it is proven (not just one study, but accepted standard of care) then we would not be giving analgesia, they would not give morphine to a premie, when you have to weigh the risks of the lowered resp from a narcotic. The benifits outweigh the risk if they are suffering and showing symptoms of pain!! ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:28 PM |
| Notice who is using emotional tactics versus medical studies to back up their position. ↑ |
| Name: Dana G | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:30 PM |
| I have one comment and I'm out of this post, M......experience overrides copy paste articles anyday...for every article out there, there is one that disagrees with it too....I remember something I heard a parent say that gave birth to a micro preemie....the father asked the DOCTOR why his son never cried when they stuck him with a needle, the DOCTOR replied that his son knew nothing except pain since he was born. His son died the same day : ( ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:31 PM |
I am using accepted standard of care in hospitals dear.
Accepted medical, pharmacutical practices based on research
Not just one study, not just opinion. Years and years of research and practice. You did medical editing??? Do you know what Standard of care is????? Do you know what it is based on??? One study, one group of physicians. No. It is based on continuous study to improve the care we give as professionals and improve care given to patients of all ages. Standard of care applies to all patients and is the universal accepted truth and expectations of care. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:31 PM |
Fetal pain challenged in debate on abortion
By Denise Grady The New York Times
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 24, 2005
Taking on one of the most highly charged questions in the American debate about abortion, a team of doctors has concluded that fetuses probably cannot feel pain in the first six months of gestation and therefore do not need anesthesia during abortions.
Their report, published Tuesday in The Journal of the American Medical Association, is based on a review of several hundred scientific papers, and it says that nerve connections in the brain are unlikely to have developed enough for the fetus to feel pain before 29 weeks. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:32 PM |
| I am not saying this stuff--several hundred scientific papers are reporting it. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:34 PM |
Very true DAna, I am sure I can find conflicting articles, however I just don't have time, I have argued with this person who thinks she knows it all all day!!
The micropremie probably also did not cry because they probably had him on a respirator, the breathing tube goes between the vocal cords and they are incapable of crying. sometimes you can see the movements of the mouth of crying but you just cannnot hear it. Also by a certain point they become so overwhelmed with pain they just basically shut down. It sounds like that's what the physician was saying about that poor baby. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:34 PM |
Evidence Synthesis
Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony. "
Conclusions Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:36 PM |
| Michelle--I have not said anything about premature babies. Don't misquote. Also, I am quoting medical professionals--these are not my conclusions--they are the conclusions of published medical professionals. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:36 PM |
Okay, then answer me this:
Why oh why do we give narcotics to premies and neonates?? Why take the chance of depressing their respirations???
BECAUSE thousands of research has shown that they do experience pain!!!!
They are talking about pain control during abortions....Why would they want to admit it??????
Hello maam we are going to numb your baby while we do this so it won't feel it????? ugh!! ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:38 PM |
Did you catch this:
For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony. " ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:38 PM |
What is a premature baby???
A baby 23-36 weeks
Therefore by saying they do not feel pain before 29 weeks, yes you have said something about premies. If they feel pain outside, of course they do if they are still INSIDE ↑ |
| Name: maxieellis | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:39 PM |
| m.......could you plllllllllease......find something else......this is depressing. It really is......IMHO. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:39 PM |
| You assume way to much. Look to scientific research. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:40 PM |
| We give narcotics to premies that are born too early, 23-36 weeks gestation because it is standard of care and now accepted knowledge that they experience pain. They do not gain more pain awareness simply by being outside the womb, if anything they mature slower if born too early. They are simply subjected to more procedures. ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:41 PM |
| The Journal of the American Medical Association must publish the work of idiots Michelle. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:41 PM |
You copy and paste too much
Give a little credit to others knowledge and experience
Go visit an NICU and see what the hell you are talking about.
I assume nothing. I have seen them have you???? ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:42 PM |
| Reflexes occur without recognition of pain. That is the explanation according to the medical professionals. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:43 PM |
LOL yes, I do think some drs are idiots.
HOwever I am sure I could find some articles by the AMA with alternate info.
I am going by scientific STANDARD OF CARE and ACCEPTED MEDICAL PRACTICE!! ↑ |
| Name: M | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:43 PM |
| I guess the published medical professionals never visited your hospital. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:43 PM |
We do not give narcotics to premies for reflexes
They do feel pain. This is accepted standard of care. ↑ |
| Name: homemommichele | Date: Apr 20th, 2007 8:44 PM |
| Once again, I repeat, I am sure I can find conflicting Professionals to back up my view too. ↑ |
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